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 Post subject: Question about my 305?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:25 am • #  
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I have a 305 and the serial number is 369268. According to the dating section in the tabs above it shows the reel was made in 1954 but according to the model section it states that the 305's weren't manufactured until 1955? What am I missing here?

I just dug it out of a box today that I had packed up since back in the early 90s. It was one of the reels that I inherited from an uncle and I had completely forgot about it.

It was a bit stiff to crank so I took it apart this evening and cleaned and greased it. I was amazed at how simple this model is to take apart and put back together. A person could overhaul this thing while they're sitting in their boat fishing.

I like this model so much that I'm going to have to get me a 304 to Crappie fish with since I'm right handed. To be 64 years old this reel is as smooth as silk. It's the easiest reeling Mitchell I've ever tried.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:04 pm • #  
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Hello Rook,

In 1954 Mitchell didn,t have serial numbers on their reels and the reels didn,t have a number indication like 304 -305 .
That came in 1955 .
Chris Shannon is our Cap expert ,maybe he can tell you a bit more .

best regards,

Dries :sAni_fish:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:55 pm • #  
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toulady6 wrote:
Hello Rook,

In 1954 Mitchell didn,t have serial numbers on their reels and the reels didn,t have a number indication like 304 -305 .
That came in 1955 .
Chris Shannon is our Cap expert ,maybe he can tell you a bit more .

best regards,

Dries :sAni_fish:



Here is a quote from the dating section tab above:

"1949/50 – SN “A” Prefix began within 3rd Versions with the lowest serial number I’ve found being #A02558 however..."


So according to the Mitchell Museum serial numbers were on the reels back in 1949.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:45 pm • #  
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Rook,
The dating chart you're looking at doesn't apply to round bodied reels.
Wallace's chart was for egg shaped reels like the 300/301/310,311,330,331, and etc..
Regards,
Ted Lanham


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:20 pm • #  
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Hello Rook,

Dries and Ted are exactly correct. Dries, Thank you for the fine compliment - I'm honored, especially when compared to some of the other collectors such as yourself who I consider Mates :sSig_thankyou: .

Rook, that is a very nice Garcia Mitchell 305. The dating of the "round body" Mitchells (304/314/340) has not been narrowed down to the extent of the Mitchell 300 series reels (Ive been working on that for several years now :sAng_banghead2: ) but there are indicators which give us a narrowed timeframe that they were manufactured. As Dries correctly stated the round bodies first recieved serial numbers in 1955. In 1956 "Garcia" was first engraved on the faceplates of the 304/305 and 314/315. Prior to that, the Garcia distributorship designation was a yellow and black arched sticker. In 1958 the raised C.A.P. was discontinued from the back of the body on the 304/305 and 314/315. So knowing that, your reel was made between 1956 and 1958. Based on my research and your 6 digit serial number I'm confident that it's a mid 1956 - early 1957.

Below is one of my Mint 1954 CAPs.

Attachment:
CAP 54.jpg

Attachment:
CAP 54 1.jpg

Attachment:
CAP 54 2.jpg


Note there is no engraving and this is the first CAP with a full bail. These reels were also known as "CAP 54s" and "Black Outs" as later in 1954 "Mitchell Cap" was engraved on the faceplate. There is no serial number and this was the last of the pillared spool with the three fingered drag knob. They never made a left hand (305) version of this reel - they came later in 1954 with the Mitchell Cap.

Probably more information than you wanted but I'm pretty passionate about the Mitchell round bodies. I've been fishing with the same Garcia Mitchell 304 since 1973 and the only things I've ever changed on it is the line and the grease :tup .

Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:54 pm • #  
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hi Chris,

Good job

regards

Dries :sAni_fish:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 6:46 pm • #  
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Chris, great explanation...I haven't quite caught the bug on these yet, but your passion is contagious...these round bodies are beautifully engineered...This is exemplary in thier quality, simplicity (as rook states) and lightweight attributes, and as you stated, for thier time...and not the least of which the essential design truly started it (spinning) all...nice post...

Sandman


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:46 pm • #  
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Thanks guys for the great info. I don't get tired of reading about these reels. The more info the better.

Chris that's a beautiful reel that you have there.

After cleaning and greasing my 305 I've really became a fan of these little reels. Like I said in my earlier post I'm going to get me a 304 to fish with.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:36 pm • #  
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Thanks Dries and Sandman :tup

Rook, Happy to help - I never tire of researching and discussing these reels. I collect all Mitchells but the round bodies are my favorites. They aren't as "sexy" or popular as the 300, 330, 302 or the 400 series (In comparison, a 304 is kind of like bringing a mule to a horse show :sFun_rofl: ) but they are wonderful in their simplicity and engineering. Paired with the correct Garcia Conolon rod, they cast a mile and you can pull stumps with them - light, easy to carry and bullet proof. There are also MANY versions and variations - I have over 100 different 304 and 305s and I'm still missing a couple that I know of. These are the reels that started Mitchell. If you have any further questions, please let me know.

Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 3:14 pm • #  
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I purchased two 304's today. One is in really good shape and the other one looks OK and it's listed as working but the bail spring is bad or missing and it's making a noise when reeling. It was so cheap I bought it anyway. If I can't fix it I'll use it for parts. Pictures to come when I receive the reels. :D


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:06 am • #  
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I like the 304, with planamatic gearing, better than the 314. I seem to have more problems getting even line lay on the 314's. The 304's are much easier to get good line lay on and the drag is better, IMO.

Concerning the early reels, I recently discovered that the very early full bails had a distinctive bail...having a hub that the bail spring fits around and which is inserted in the rotor housing. Also the line guide screw with the post; always wondered why the line guides had a hole in them.

Additionally, the early housings using a steel oscillation slide and having a guide way for it machined into the housing is cool too. I assume that going to a nylon slide made that machined in guide way unnecessary.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:54 pm • #  
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Smead wrote:

Additionally, the early housings using a steel oscillation slide and having a guide way for it machined into the housing is cool too. I assume that going to a nylon slide made that machined in guide way unnecessary.


Are the oscillation slides universal? Can a newer nylon type be used in the old CAP models and visa-versa?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 7:51 pm • #  
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Hi Rook,
The easy answer is sometimes ;) . The steel oscillation slide is slightly thicker than the nylon one and won't work in the 1st and 2nd version CAPs. The later CAPs shouldn't be a problem. Personally, I prefer to keep my reels all original and I have found no advantages with the nylon over the steel. Just my opinion. :sHa_biggrin:

Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:22 pm • #  
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cshannon772 wrote:
Hi Rook,
I prefer to keep my reels all original and I have found no advantages with the nylon over the steel. Just my opinion. :sHa_biggrin:

Regards,
Chris


Me too but if I buy an old reel that needs a replacement steel oscillation slide it looks like they'll be hard to find. All I can find listed on E-bay is the newer nylon type which is the reason I ask the question.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:33 pm • #  
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The steel slides are very difficult to find, they also take a different type of screw.

But the nylon slide and it's screws can be replacements on some reels, as cshannon has said.

If you ever get a half bail with crosswind gearing, you'll see a distinctive gear and steel slide that can not be replaced with nylon...if you want to keep a reel original.

By replacing the original gear with a later one, you could use other later reel parts.

I have found that early reels do very much require the housing cover gasket to run quietly. They seem to properly space the main gear and pinion on the rotor.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:41 am • #  
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Smead wrote:
The steel slides are very difficult to find, they also

I have found that early reels do very much require the housing cover gasket to run quietly. They seem to properly space the main gear and pinion on the rotor.


Ah ha, that explains it! My 305 did not have a gasket for the housing and cover plate and the schematic I was looking at did not show one either. That explains why that when I tightened down the screws snug that it put the gear in a bind and would not reel smooth. Now if I can just find the 81 number for it because the old schematic only shows a two digit part number.
Thanks for the info :sHa_okay:


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:41 pm • #  
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They eventually found a way to not need a gasket in later reels, though the gasket remained as a part on the schematic until fairly late.

Perhaps debris or a burr is preventing the main gear from fully seating in the housing. You could try a different gear. You also might try getting a different 305 housing cover and see if that helps.

In 6 years, I have only seen a batch of the gaskets in NOS condition two times on Ebay. It appears that these did come in misc thicknesses like shims do.

It might be possible to make one, with a compass cutter, out of thin brass shim stock...kind of a PITA, but doable. Thinnest shim stock I have been able to find is .005".

Sometimes very beat up CAP reels can be had for not too much cost and can yield some of these very hard to find parts.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:18 pm • #  
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Hi Rook,

Your GM 305 would not have come with a faceplate/body gasket as those were discontinued in early 1954. The gaskets were made of a paper/cardboard material and about .010" thick -very fragile and exceptionally hard to find NOS. Installed on the early CAPs, you must treat them with caution as they are almost always oil/grease soaked and come apart easily. They also complicate reassembly in getting everything to properly line up while protecting the gasket so everything goes back together in one piece. Smead is correct in stating the reels that had a gasket will need the gasket upon reassembly to function correctly. Otherwise they are coarse and noisy. I ran into this problem with my polished CAP. I could not determine why it was so noisy until I recognized that it needed a gasket. I added a NOS CAP gasket and it was perfect. My best guess in your case is the clearance between the rotor gear and the main gear is too close. There should be at least one small .010 shim between the body and the rotor cup - you may need to add another. I have also seen the axel shaft slightly bent which will provide the same symptoms you describe. I have plenty of round body parts and am happy to help.

Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:06 am • #  
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Thanks Chris for the offer that's very neighborly of you. :-)

I'll check it out and see if it needs another shim but it's actually working pretty good as long as I don't over tighten the screws. If it reeled any easier I'd have to tie it down to keep it from spinning on it's own. ;)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:41 am • #  
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What's confusing is that the gasket is listed on schematics until 1961, as an optional part.

I've only seen a shim between the housing and rotor on one reel...and that was on an early CAP.

You can use the bail trip shim as the ID is the correct size; but the OD needs to be reduced or it will be chewed up by the main gear's teeth. A PITA, but doable.

However, there isn't much room for shimming. If you use a 0.10 mm shim between the rotor and housing, you will have to remove 0.10 mm of shimming from under the bail trip.

This often means that you might end up with no shim at all under the bail trip, or have to drop the steel washer and just use shims alone. Otherwise, the rotor will jam when you tighten the nex nut.

The problem can be worse on older reels when in past dis-assembly/re-assembly the hex nut was over tightened and cut the thread deeper on the reel body's's axle housing.

Any rotor shimming can effect line lay, which should be checked after the reel is re-assembled.

If that axle housing is not bent, new parts might make a difference.

In factory assembly, you have bins of parts. It is common practice to match parts with critical dimensions. Each dimension has a tolerance, assemblers will match parts by measuring and joining to avoid an assembly with two parts both having dimensions at the high or low ends of their range.

Years later, wear, or the use of replacement parts, may throw off the sizing. This is one reason tackle shops got certified as repair centers in the past; they could then use the proper tools and parts in repair.

I'll try to find the kit on the site, but their is a reel repair tool kit which includes a reamer for the rotor's oilite bushing, which also shaves the rotor face. Tools like these are a great aid in proper repair. Without them you do the best you can.

I discovered this when I got my first NOS 304 rotor which wouldn't fit on the housing's axle shaft.

Here it is:

http://www.mitchellreelmuseum.com/index.php/category/64-mitchell-reel-tool-kit-advertisements


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 11:04 am • #  
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That's interesting. Smead have you ever seen one of these tool kits? That would be a great item to have with a collection. The tool at the top left in the photo looks like a tool specifically designed for pinion gears?

Thanks for posting the link with the photo.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:04 pm • #  
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I believe that the tool at upper far left is the rotor's oilite bearing reamer; next to it looks like a spanner screw driver.

I have never seen a full tool kit, other than on the MRM website.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 3:50 pm • #  
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I received the 304 parts reel in the mail today that I ordered on E-bay. It's in better condition than it was advertised to be. I took it apart and the only thing I can find wrong with it is a broken bail spring and the trip lever spring was not installed right and it's of course very dirty.

Looks like someone thought that greasing the inside of the rotating head would fix it. Image They had a greasy mess in the head.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:02 pm • #  
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Looks a lot better now.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:05 pm • #  
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That's squeaky clean...do you use an ultrasonic cleaner?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:58 am • #  
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Smead wrote:
That's squeaky clean...do you use an ultrasonic cleaner?


I have an ultrasonic cleaner but I didn't use it on these parts. I just used a brush and WD-40 to clean these with.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:22 pm • #  
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Hi Rook,

Great job on your reel. I use WD-40 exclusively for cleaning my reels; I buy it by the gallon and put it in a spray bottle. Sometimes I have to soak parts in mineral spirits if the caked grease has dried but for the most part a toothbrush and WD-40 does the trick. One of the Mates did mention a while ago that WD-40 will take the paint off the raised letters (plastic plate i.e. "GARCIA MITCHELL 300") of the later Mitchell reels. I don't collect the later reels so I can't say for sure but I certainly trust the advice of a Mate :tup .

Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 7:36 pm • #  
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After I got every thing clean and started to reassemble it I noticed the threaded area of the drive gear shaft had a slight bent. So you can probably guess what happened next. I decided to try to bend it back ever so slightly to fix it and..."SNAP"..it broke right off! :sEm_oops:

Oh well, I found one on E-bay that I ordered and it should be here in a couple of days. As you can see in the picture the handle had a slight bend in it also and I did manage to straighten it out without breaking it.

This was just going to be a parts reel but I think it's worth salvaging.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:21 pm • #  
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The drive gear that I ordered to replace the one that I broke trying to straighten out the shaft for the 304 reel that I bought for parts sometime back arrived in the mail today. I got everything back together after working on it for quiet a while today and it's working great. I saved another old round body reel from the junk yard. :sBo_bounce2:

One of the things that was wrong with the reel was a shim that was placed below the pinion gear and body. I took the reel back apart 5 times tying to figure out what was causing the gears to jerk and sound like they were binding. Evidently someone had put a shim there and it didn't need to be and that was what was causing the problem. I removed that one tiny shim and now it reels as smooth as butter. I would never have thought that one ten thousands of an inch thick washer would make that much of a difference??


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:21 pm • #  
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Hello Rook , Having a C.A.P. apart on my reel bench at present I can tell you it has 2 gaskets between th body and cover plate. Measured with a digital caliper the thin one is .004 and the thick one is .016 , and they both look to be original to me. It's also a reel with no ser. # except what looks like a # 2 on the bottom of the foot, it also has the steel oscillation slide, and no engraving.Just some info ,hope it helps. Regards , John in Pa.


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