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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:23 am • #  
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I offer Mitchell collectors everywhere my best wishes for 2018; and also thanks to Wallace Carney for maintaining this valuable resource for our benefit.

Some members might be interested to see a tournament reel with composite spool. This is probably one of the rarest Mitchell reels, and pre-dates the "Wedding Cake" reel. It is interesting to note that it has a RHW rotor, whereas the "Wedding Cake" has a LHW one.

This particular reel appears to be mint, unused which supports the notion that duplicates of reels made were held in the factory.

My interest in the early Mitchells has caused me to look at other French reels from the immediate pre-war period; particularly Luxor, Pecos and CAP. When time permits, I will provide some information on these reels as they all have some relevance to the birth of Mitchell.

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 6:41 pm • #  
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Hey Rolands,

So wonderful to see you return with yet another post of a marvelous reel! And, with spectacular photography, too! :sBo_bounce2:

For the benefit of Mates unfamiliar with the background of this reel, including myself, and, perhaps possibly, to spare you writing about some details in the future, here is a link to Luc de Medts' detailing:
http://users.skynet.be/mitchell-collectors.org/articles_mitchell_tournament_2.html

What I find immediately striking about this reel (versus the second version aka "wedding cake") is that the pronounced 79º angle of the spool was discontinued in the later "wedding cake" (having the standard 90º angle). Not knowing any other details, one might have guessed that the 79º angle was the more advanced design.

Secondly, I did notice a difference in the anti-reverse levers in the photos posted by Luc de Medts compared to your reel (imaged above). Do you have thoughts to share about this?

Well okay, thirdly, I'm wondering whether the line-holding spool section has been abraded (for example, with sandpaper or steel wool) - although this may not be possible to distinquish with line spooled.

Warm regards,

John


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:00 pm • #  
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Hello Rolands,

That is a beautiful reel :sFun_eyescan: and as you stated, exceptionally rare! I also noted that the Anti-Reverse lever is from a Mitchell 350 vice the boomerang A/R lever (300) I would expect. It has been noted many times previously however that these reels were made specifically for tournament casters so perhaps a personal preference? Is there a serial number on it? Just a fantastic reel, congratulations on a wonderful find in perfect condition :tup .

Best Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:39 am • #  
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Dear John,
I am glad that you like the reel : she is, I think, rather special. I must come clean and confess that the photos were taken by the previous owner. It would be wrong to take the credit for another man's work !!

You always come up with the goods when it comes to research. I hadn't seen the piece by Luc deMedts before. It is excellent.

I wonder if the steeper angle of fall on the composite spool might have caused the line to tumble off rather too freely, which could cause tangles on the cast.

The anti-reverse lever is exactly the same as on a 350. These reels were probably assembled in pairs - one for the caster and one for Mitchell. I doubt whether the caster would have requested a specific lever because the AR is non-functioning on this reel. The AR on the "Wedding Cake" does function.

I am interested to see that deMedts dates this reel to 1963. My guess was 1962 based on external parts like the handle, AR lever and trip lever.

The spool has not been sanded at all, although the surface of the material is lightly textured. The bottom section of the spool had a turn of fine thread presumably to give extra grip to the main-line. The glue that held this in place had dried-out so the line was un-ravelling. I have removed it now. Wallace shows a reel in his book also with fine thread on the bottom section. The top section has an angled groove which would have set the shock leader at an angle to the main casting line.

I have not examined this reel or the "Wedding Cake" internally as I prefer not to open mint reels, unless the grease has solidified.

Dear Chris,

I am also pleased that you like the reel. I had you in mind when I posted the photos, because I knew you would appreciate it. I had decided not to buy any more Mitchells, but I couldn't resist this one; although I did try. I don't display my reels as a rule, but I think these tournament reels deserve to be shown off.

The reel has no serial number although what might be a J or 4 is hand scratched on the foot under the paint.

Regards,

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:35 pm • #  
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Rolands,

Thank you for the information - I think we can all agree, that is a very special Mitchell. I also agree, one that should be displayed. As you know I display my entire collection and below is how I display my Wedding Cake in the reel room. Cake under Glass :sFun_rofl:
Attachment:
Wedding Cake Display.jpg


I have opened my Wedding Cake - Very Carefully!! I emailed you photos of the internals of my reel as they should be identical to yours. I just don't want to post such sensitive information on a public forum 8o .

Kind Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:32 pm • #  
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Hey Chris!

" I just don't want to post such sensitive information on a public forum 8o ."

I am new here and possibly I do not understand "in house" jokes/humour...

So I will look foolish and ask the question...

Why a reel "innards" sensitive???

Ducking for cover! :sHa_biggrin:
Reely


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:39 pm • #  
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Hi Reely :sFun_rofl: :sFun_rofl: ,

Not a foolish question at all. Some of the engineering/manufacturing information was very closely guarded by Mitchell because it could be copied. More so today with CAD programming, lazer engraving/cutting and CNC machining. With a small investment, I could manufacture a couple hundred of these very rare Mitchell Tournament Casting reels - if I was untrustworthy :eek . I think we, as collectors have a responsibility to maintain the pedigree and heritage of Mitchell by guarding that it not fall into the wrong hands. I've known Rowlands for several years and know what I pass him will be guarded. No offense to any other Mate of course.

A great example is the dealer cut-away reels - originals by Mitchell are very rare but complete photos were released and now you have to be very careful and know exactly what you're looking at to ensure you are getting an original. If you look in the gallery in the Museum, Wallace would only show one side of the reel to protect the pedigree of these reels. I have three dealer cut-away 304/314s....two are real Mitchell and one is not (It's a great copy). I paid a premium price for all three and two are collectable and one is a paperweight :nono. I mean no disrespect to any of our Mates but better to closely hold such sensitive information than to have the market flooded with reproductions. Hope you understand.

Best Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:52 pm • #  
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Hey Chris!

Thank you for taking the time to reply to my question...

Counterfeiting never entered my mind, when I asked...

The more I participate here, I come to realize the dedication and seriousness of those that collect these reels...I respect your efforts to legitimize and protect the Mitchel/Garcia product name...

As for me:

I have recently acquired a 3-0-4, 314 and 340...

I just love that round design and plan to fish the first two and "collect" the 340(it is mint), so I "sorta" belong here :sHa_lol:

I try to learn something new every day; this forum makes it easy!!!

Regards,
Reely


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:28 pm • #  
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Hi Reely,

I don't want to hijack Rowlands' thread in the forum but the round body Mitchells are my favorites in my collection. Here are a few of them:
Attachment:
Round Bodies.jpg

Actually, I'm only missing a couple from having every model/version CAP/Mitchell round body ever made. If you have any questions or need assistance in furthering your "Round Body" Mitchell collecting, I'd be happy to help.

Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:40 am • #  
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Hey Chris!

Gulp!!!

Speechless!!!

No wonder those little round guys are so hard to find, you got them all!!!

I am out of my element here, I think my future postings will be how many fish I landed, using one reel or another, and commenting how my "collector" reel likes the confines of it's cabinet shelf!!!

And now I must confess to be getting smarter...yes!

I am not going to ask to see the rest of your collection, I don't want to risk a heart attack!!! :sHa_lol:

Totally impressed,
Reely


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:27 am • #  
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Dear Chris,
I'm also speechless !! That is magnificent.

I can't make out the detail, so wonder if you have an early Carpano CAP with the Bakelite/composite knob ? I attach photos of one I have.

Have you bothered with the pre-Carpano CAPs ?

Thanks for sending photos of your Wedding Cake. I will open my reels later on and send you some photos.

Regards,

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:35 am • #  
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Dear All,

I need to correct an earlier post.

I said that the anti-reverse in the composite reel was non-functioning. Having opened the reel I can confirm that the AR is complete and only not working correctly because the grease has hardened.

Regards,

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:28 pm • #  
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Hey Rolands,

Thank you for your last post! My sense of order in the universe has been restored; a useless big knob just did not seem like something a designer(s) would do.

Yet, Luc de Medts has written (although on his page of tournament casters with "boomerang" AR levers):
Quote:
Another important feature on these reels was the locking system. It provided a means for completed casts to be “saved’ and prevent line movement. The locking mechanism was different on this version of tournament reel than on later models. It consisted of a large disk that was connected to the inside of the handle hub. When turned, it would prevent rotor movement. Any movement of the line after the cast came to rest could be reasons for points to be reduced or disqualification. The anti-reverse system on these models is intact but not functional on this & other distance casters. The reason for this is because the reel is not used for fishing and if disengaged, could cause line movement after the cast. For Skish or Arenberg models, also called “Precision Casting Models” are provided a full functional anti-reverse system.

So, I wonder is there an interaction with the locking mechanism and AR? When the locking mechanism is fully locked, AR would not be expected to have an effect. However, when the locking mechanism is fully unlocked, is AR fully functional then? Does the locking mechanism have a partial/intermediate state?

John


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 2:58 pm • #  
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Dear John,

Not for the first time you have caught me out : I did not read Luc deMedts properly. I think I now have an answer of sorts for you.

I have opened a 350 and the composite reel to compare and the cover plates are the same except that the tourney reel has provision for an extra gear to reverse the turn of the rotor. The complete AR system in both reels is identical including the lever and pawl. However, the main drive gear in the tourney reel is smaller in diameter, possibly to make room for the extra gear. Because of this the AR pawl does not quite engage well : it doesn't reach far enough. The end of the pawl has been bent to try and sort the problem, but this has not been a complete success. I can manually push the pawl to engage the gear so it may have worked when it originally left the factory and the grease was soft, but with hardened grease it is too stiff to work properly.

I, therefore, both agree and disagree in with deMedts. It is quite likely that his reel also had hard grease and therefore, like with mine, this meant it had a complete but non-functioning AR system. Where I disagree is that I think the reel was meant to have a fully functioning AR system. Firstly, I think that with soft grease the AR would work and secondly, the later Wedding cake reel had a fully functioning AR, which rather confounds Luc's assertion.

If these reels were not meant to have an AR they would simply not have installed one. The AR would be required to keep every thing in place when the reel was not in use.

I will take some photos of the tournament reel against a 350 which will make things much clearer than my description. With respect to what Chris Shannon said earlier, I will not post the photos, but rather send them to you. If Chris is happy for me to post the photos, I will do this later.

I don't think it is necessary to discuss the contents of your last paragraph. I would just mention that in my experience the AR system on the early 350's was very unreliable. Something to do with the pawl I think.

Kind regards,

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 5:00 pm • #  
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Reely,
Many years ago, I was a beginning fishing tackle collector that had just had my last son graduate from college and so I had a little extra money, for a change.
I had always wanted to attend one of the national fishing lure conventions put on by the National Fishing Lure Collectors Club so I felt like that was the time to try one out.
I had saved up, what I thought, was a nice nest egg to finance my outing, but after spending only a couple hours at the show, I decided I was in over my head. I had seen single transactions for fishing lures that were in the 4 and 5 digits!
By noon at the show, I had decided that it was time to head home when I met a collector from North Carolina that set me down in a chair and explained to me that there were many levels of collecting fishing tackle. There were collectors that sought out rare items that cost many thousands of dollars, and there were collectors that were delighted to find and old wooden glass eyed lure for $10. When either found what they were hunting for, both were equally delighted and they shared their find with other like minded collectors.
After that talk, I attended many of the NFLCCs shows and I was just as happy finding either a nice $10 lure, or an older $20 Mitchell as the fellows with a lot more to spend, and the leaning experience was worth a million.
Regards,
Ted Lanham


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:33 pm • #  
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Hey Ted!

Thank you for your kind and gracious reply, I don't feel like such an outsider now...

I like to learn new things and I think the "Mates" here deserve Masters Degrees in forensic reel science!!!

I hope to prove myself as a good pupil...

Best regards,
Reely


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 10:20 pm • #  
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Hi Mates,

First and foremost I apologize if I ever made any of the Mates feel uncomfortable or unwelcome here in the Museum - I never meant to do that. While it's obvious that I have a significant monetary investment in my collection, that value is insignificant compared to the time and effort I have expended in research, communication and documentation of the history, heritage and the fishing reels of Mitchell and their distributors/associates. It was never my intent to be pretentious but only to contribute my fortunate reel acquisitions, opinions and observations (for what they were worth) which may not have been documented here in the Museum. Anyone who knows me, knows I'm just a regular guy with a bunch of nice Mitchell reels and a passion for our hobby.

I wish all of you Mates a happy, healthy and prosperous New Year but going forward, I think I'll just keep my collecting activity, observations and opinions to myself.

Best Regards,
Chris


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:04 pm • #  
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Chris,
You have never posted anything on the MRM that you have to apologize for. Please reconsider not posting your collection and opinions, expertise here on the forum.
I wish I could phrase this request in a fashion that would show my sincerity better, but as just an old telephone man, I'm just not that good with words. I wish I was better at it.
As a modest collector of just the 300 models, I just love seeing the picture of the reels that you, and others, post here for our viewing pleasure.
I understand the position that Reely is in because I've been in his position, but I was able to get beyond being "awestruck" and consider being happy with the hunt, as well as the find.
I have to add that because of the information that I was able to get from mates like you and Tinca, I was able to recognise several rarer reels that I would have never noticed had I not paid attention to all the posts, and add them to my collection.
Bargains can be had at various sources, if one has the knowledge to see them.

Regards,
Ted Lanham


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:35 pm • #  
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Chris,
I think you may be confusing admiration, respect, and amazement with something else here, and I can assure you of the high regard, interest, and gratitude we all share for your contributions to this forum.

Rolands,
Thank you for sharing your collection with us. :sSig_nicethread:

Happy New Year Everyone
Kind Regards,
Bill :tup


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:00 am • #  
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Hey Guys!

My reaction to the collection that Chris posted was one of awe, in that someone was so dedicated to his hobby; it was never meant to be considered as a put down to me as a newbie here...

I just recognized a great collection of a dedicated collector, who obviously has taken time, effort and cash to enjoy the chase of finding a rare model to enjoy as his own...

It's not that I don't have reels, in fact I have about 18 or 20 assorted types which are "working" reels that I fish with...

So I guess I can be considered a working reel collector :sHa_lol:

However as I said before my 340 may be an entry level start to try to catch up with you guys...

Regards,
Reely


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:49 am • #  
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Chris, I'll jump in and say that I too enjoy all the info, pics and opinions that you provide to this great forum. Please don't stop. I myself don't post a great deal but look forward to reading and viewing everything the mates take the time to share with us. Sincerely, Dennis2149. PS Happy New Year again.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:52 am • #  
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Dear Chris,

I sincerely hope you will reconsider. I am being selfish when I say this. You are universally admired as a collector and the hobby needs people of integrity like you.

Kind regards,

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:33 am • #  
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Dear John,

I have looked at my reels again and realize that I have totally misunderstood the situation with regard to the AR and written nonsense.

The main drive gear in the tournament reel is probably a standard 300 gear.

The AR system is the same as on a 350 except that the cam that pushes the AR dog is orientated slightly different to the lever. The result is that the lever does nothing.

Correctly lubricated the AR will always be engaged irrespective of the position of the lever; and I think this is what deMedts meant. My AR operates like this when the cover plate is removed from the housing, but when the reel is assembled the AR disengages due to downward pressure from the transfer gear and the hard grease. If I re-lubricated my reel it would work as intended with AR always on, but at present the reverse is the case.

I think deMedts could have phrased it better i.e "The anti-reverse on these models is intact but the lever is not functional. The AR is permanently engaged".

I hope this makes sense.

Kind regards,

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:25 pm • #  
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Hi Chris & all Mates, I want to wish all the Mates everywhere a happy new year. I also want to say to Chris that I and I hope everyone else don't think you were trying to be uppity about your great collection of reels . I for one wish I would have purchased a few more when I was younger. Like I said in another post before I came across the MRM I never realized that there was such an interest in those " old reels " as a lot of my fishing pals would call them.I just want to say to all the Mates with special or rare reels that I hope they keep posting photos of them ,and to any of the younger Mates out there just remember , when us older Mitchell fishermen are standing next to each other on ( the far side banks of Jordan) waiting for opening day to start just remember all of our Mitchell reels have to wind up somewhere, hopefully in good hands. Regards John in Pa.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:59 pm • #  
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In the interest of completeness and accuracy I attach 3 photos showing how Mitchell configured the AR system on the early Tournament reels in such a way that it is disengaged in the normal on and off positions, but fully engaged in the midway position.

I believe this is what Luc deMedts meant in the Article that John pointed out to us.

I won't detail specifics in deference to the point Chris made about counterfeiting of reels.

Apologies for the confusion I have cause on this, but I am not very mechanically minded.

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:56 am • #  
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Hello Rolands, Trying to learn a little about these special reels for tournament casting I've been reading the posts about them. From what I see I don't believe the main gear is the same diameter as a 300, I would think it has to be smaller so as not to engage the pinion gear. The main gear can only engage the extra gear, if it engaged the pinion and the extra gear the gear train would be locked up at that point from trying to be turned in two different directions at the same time. I also think that pressing the anti- reverse dog on in the position it's in gives the pawl the longest stroke possible to get full engagement so it works reliably .Just a few observations , I could be wrong it wouldn't be the first time. Regards John in Pa.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:10 pm • #  
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Dear John,
You have set me quite a challenge because I am not very mechanically minded. You are missing one piece of information which should address the valid points you have made.

What Mitchell did with this reel was use a 350 cover plate with hybrid gearing. I attach photos of the insides of both 350 and 300 cover plates with the gears removed, but their positions clearly shown in the grease. The 350 utilises a larger main drive gear to give the extra speed.

To accommodate this larger gear the shaft that takes it and the pin for the transfer gear are slightly more to the right in a 350 than in the 300. I also attach a photo of both cover plates with gears in place.

So what they did was use a 350 cover plate with a smaller main gear. As you pointed out, this gear doesn't engage with the pinion gear and therefore the extra gear is accommodated.

The main drive gear in the composite reel looks to my eye roughly the size of a 300 gear. Jan Haanstra who has studied these reels tells me it is a special hybrid gear.

The anti-reverse is more simple. The AR dog in the 350 is in a different position to a 300 because of the larger main gear. Because the composite reel has a 350 cover plate and a smaller main gear, neither a 350 nor a 300 dog will work : I know this because I've tried them both. They made a special one.

The dog engages when the straight edge of the cam is vertical and this normally occurs when the lever is fully up. When the lever is down the bulbous part of the cam pushes the dog to did-engage. With the composite reel they fixed the cam to the lever slightly turned around so that the straight edge is vertical in the mid-way lever position. This means that the AR is on in the mid-way lever position, but off when the lever is fully up or down.

I'm sure this was intentional and it is described in the article by Luc deMedts which John Fishkat made available to us.

I apologise for my poor description, but I suspect the photos will make it clear.

Kind regards,

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:08 pm • #  
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Hello Rolands , Your last post with the pictures of the two side cover plates helps to clear some of this up . Having taken my 300 & 350 and quite a few other 300 size reels apart to clean and relube them I never actually had them side by side for comparison . It's amazing what a little shifting of a part can make. I for one will always believe that the products that came out of the Mitchell plant were some of the best engineered at the time. Regards John in Pa.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:16 am • #  
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Dear John,

I'm glad that helped. Like you, I had no idea of the differences between the 350 and 300 cover plates.

The tournament reel is quite a clever design being basically a hybrid of the 300 and 350.

I agree that the Mitchell designers and engineers were top class.

Kind regards,

Rolands.


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PostPosted: Thu May 09, 2019 5:12 am • #  
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I have become very interested in tournament reels, and having had the opportunity to compare 2 mint reels with composite spools, it seems to me that they were made sporadically over several years.

The older reel has a lever anti-reverse control and the AR only works in the mid-way position. The bail trip has a serrated edge and the bail stop is standard. The bail has 2 line guides and is bent slightly from vertical. The baffle plate nut is the original style. The end of the screw holding the extra gear is painted black. The grease is old style medium brown and opaque.

The later reel has a boomerang anti-reverse control, but the internals are absent. The bail trip has a plain end and the bail is specially made with a non-standard stop (the same part is on the later Wedding Cake reel). The bail has a more pronounced bend from vertical. The baffle plate screw is modern. The screw holding the extra gear is not painted. The grease is the later green and translucent type.

Putting it all together, I would date the older reel to early 1960's and the other to late 1960's.

If any other members collect these reels, I would be interested to hear how their reels compare.

JF.


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